From Beethoven to Emily Dickinson and Earl Scruggs: The Musical Archaeology of Tony Trischka

It is natural that a second generation bluegrass banjo player would have soaked up as much of Earl Scruggs’ style on the five string as possible when starting out; it is just as natural that they would push outside of those boundaries of the territory staked out by their pioneering forebears. In Tony Trischka’s case, part of this instinct to turn bluegrass on its head early on in his career involved doing things like adding saxophone to an instrumental version of “Roll In My Sweet Baby’s Arms”, which began with a cacophonous drum solo. Now, we find the habitual trailblazer discovering and reinterpreting never before heard jams from none other than Earl Scruggs himself. It is a bit of a full circle moment, although that is not to say that Tony Trischka ever left the traditional bluegrass fold, either. He is and always was a banjo renaissance man, respected by fans of the roots music avant-garde and the three finger roll alike.

In the past couple of years in his now nearly sixty year career, Tony Trischka has been excitedly traveling down an even deeper Earl Scruggs rabbit hole than even he could ever have imagined. Already at work on another book of re-transcriptions of Earl Scruggs' music, which had previously been transcribed by guitar players, a friend named Bob Piekel sent Tony over 200 home recordings of Earl made by John Hartford, which included other greats like Tony Rice, Mac Wiseman and Del McCoury playing for fun over many years in the 1980s and 1990s. These tapes revealed a side of Earl’s playing, both in style and repertoire, that no one outside of those small circles of musicians ever heard, including multiple versions of songs like "Gentle on My Mind" and "Here Comes the Bride"; Earl playing blues licks on “Cripple Creek”; syncopations that he used only in those private settings. Brimming with inspiration, Tony Trischka crafted an album based on the John Hartford tapes, bringing in players like Sam Bush, Molly Tuttle, Michael Cleveland, Billy Strings and Mark Schatz, to record his new collection titled Earl Jam: A Tribute To Earl Scruggs. 

Tony Trischka plays banjo alongside Darol Anger on fiddle

Just after Earl Scruggs’ 100th birth anniversary, and just ahead of his own 75th trip around the sun, I sat with Tony Trischka at the Earl Scruggs Center following his performance at the Remembering Earl concert, which included the Travelin’ McCourys and Jerry Douglas. This episode contains the bulk of that conversation, which was also partially excerpted in our earlier episode titled “An Update, and Two Quick Takes With Tony Trischka and Travis Book”, which includes a portion of Tony’s interview that does not appear here.

Songs heard in this episode:

“John Henry Medley: John Henry/Bonaparte’s Retreat/Twists and Turns” by Tony Trischka, from Territory

“Roll In My Sweet Baby’s Arms” by Tony Trischka, from Heartlands, excerpt

“Quite Early Morning” by Pete Seeger, from Pete Seeger: The Smithsonian Folkways Collection, excerpt

“Dooley” by Tony Trischka, featuring Molly Tuttle and Sam Bush”, from Earl Jam: A Tribute To Earl Scruggs

Thank you so much for visiting! We are grateful that you took time to listen, and hope you can help us by spreading awareness of what we are doing. It is as easy as telling a friend and following this podcast on your platform of choice. From there it takes just a moment to give us a top rating and a review. It makes a great difference because the more top reviews and ratings we get, the more visible we become to everyone on those platforms, which means that more people just like you find musical kinship with artists like Tony Trishcka, and legends like Earl Scruggs and Pete Seeger. I would love to hear your comments about that sort of thing and all things Southern Songs and Stories -- you can drop me a line at southernsongsandstories@gmail.com, and I will be glad to reply. Speaking of Earl Scruggs, check out our episode titled The Humble Genius of Earl Scruggs, which is chock full of interviews with bluegrass artists sharing their memories of Earl and how he impacted their lives.

This series is a part of the lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes on Bluegrass Planet Radio here.

Thanks to Mary Beth Martin and Zach Dressel at the Earl Scruggs Center in Shelby, North Carolina for all their help in setting up my interview with Tony Trischka, and to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, where we worked with Joshua Meng, who wrote and performed our theme songs.  This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it. - Joe Kendrick

Going Solo, With Soul: Travis Book

It was one of the first cold days of the fall in the western NC mountains when I trekked up from Spindale to Brevard to talk with Travis Book ahead of his show in town that night. Spindale is perhaps 60 miles away, where I work at WNCW, and with special shortcut directions from a trusted source who travels that route regularly, I figured it would take about an hour to get there. Only that travel time forecast was wildly optimistic, compounded by the fact that I wound up with most of the directions but did not have the last bit, which I figured I would somehow intuit, but could not. So instead of taking about an hour and a half, which was more like normal, I had to stop, then call Travis and ask for directions, and was pushing up against his practice time once I rolled in to his driveway a good two hours after leaving work.

After a quick hello, we sat at Travis’ kitchen table and dove into conversation. The hectic and anxious lead-up to this could have derailed other interviews, but Travis took it in stride, and I seemed to be able to focus some of that nervous energy into a free flowing series of questions and commentary that became the foundation for this episode, which includes music from his solo debut album Love and Other Strange Emotions.

Travis Book plays upright bass along with Jon Stickley on guitar at his Travis Book Happy Hour show at 185 King St. in Brevard NC 11-28-23

Songs heard in this episode:

“A Little Too Much” by Travis Book, from Love and Other Strange Emotions

“Leavin’” by Travis Book, from Love and Other Strange Emotions, excerpt

“The Truth Is Out There” by Travis Book, from Love and Other Emotions

Thank you for visiting us and giving this podcast a listen! This series is a part of the lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to everyone at 185 King Street for their hospitality. Thanks to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, and to Joshua Meng, who wrote and performed our theme songs.

Southern Songs and Stories is currently ranked #14 in Southern podcasts here on feedspot.com, and recently moved up to a top 2.5% globally ranked podcast by Listen Notes, which makes us smile.

This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it. - Joe Kendrick

Teaching the Art of the Bluegrass Jam: Pete Wernick

What connects you to the year 1946? Think of the time immediately following World War II, and perhaps black and white images of men in fedoras and women in long dresses come to mind. Maybe you have parents or grandparents who were born around that time, or maybe you know someone who lived then and has past on. It is an era that now seems quite distant for most of us, a kind of abstraction that can be read about but which remains present only in its dusty tomes and mono records. But like all eras of our past, the time when bluegrass music was born remains with us in tangible, even impactful ways. In 1946, Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys recorded their first songs with new members Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs, and a new genre of music was born. Born that same year in New York City was Pete Wernick, who came to know all of the Blue Grass Boys as well as most if not all of the other first-generation stars, and played with many of them eventually as well. He remains one of the few people today who embodies a direct link to this era, making it leap from the pages of history across the decades and get us tapping our feet to bluegrass music that is still being born.

Pete Wernick

Songs heard in this episode:

“Waiting For Daylight” by Pete Wernick & Flexigrass, from What The

“Powwow the Indian Boy” by Hot Rize, from Hot Rize, excerpt

“Untold Stories” by Hot Rize, from Untold Stories, excerpt

“Spring Break” by Pete Wernick, from On A Roll

Thank you for visiting us and giving this podcast a listen! This series is a part of the lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to everyone at IBMA for their role in making this episode possible, and you can listen to more episodes on this series on artists interviewed at previous IBMA conferences, like Sierra Hull, Bela Fleck, Stephen Mougin and Ben Wright (Sam Bush Band and Henhouse Prowlers respectively), and C.J. Lewandowski (Po’ Ramblin’ Boys), to name a few. Thanks to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, and to Joshua Meng, who wrote and performed our theme songs.

Southern Songs and Stories is currently ranked #13 in Southern podcasts here on feedspot.com, and moved up to a top 2.5% globally ranked podcast by Listen Notes, which makes us smile.

This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it. - Joe Kendrick

Fiddlin’ Femmes: Della Mae and Sister Sadie

Half a century ago, one of the first all-female bluegrass bands gave us the genre’s first album played exclusively by women; their banjo player’s mother was embarrassed about her daughter’s choice of profession. It was only fifty years or so after the passage of the 19th Amendment, after all.

Today, there are more all-female bluegrass and roots music bands, but they remain an exception. Join us as we talk with two of the best: the newgrass oriented quintet Della Mae, and the more high lonesome minded five piece Sister Sadie. Both groups have a range of generations in their ranks, and plenty of experience with taking on hurdles that female artists of every age still face all these years after Buffalo Gals took those first steps on their shared paths.

Della Mae (standing) and Sister Sadie (sitting)

In this episode, we talk in wide ranging conversations ranging from songwriting, collaborations, covers and solo projects, to keeping both themselves and their audiences fully engaged, and we sample some of their latest music throughout. You will hear what both have in store for the coming year as well, which  includes being part of the lineup of the 2nd annual Earl Scruggs Music Festival on Labor Day weekend in Tryon, North Carolina.

Songs heard in this episode:

“Raleigh’s Ride” by Sister Sadie, from Sister Sadie II

“Dry Town” by Della Mae, from Family Reunion, excerpt

“Diane” by Sister Sadie, excerpt

“Something You Didn’t Count On” by Jaelee Roberts, from Something You Didn’t Count On, excerpt

Thank you for visiting, and are even more grateful whenever you share this with someone. Please follow us on your podcast platform of choice, and then it will only take a minute to give it a good rating and, where it is an option, a review. Great ratings, and reviews especially, will make Southern Songs and Stories and the artists it profiles more likely to be found by more people just like you. This series is a part of the lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes of this podcast on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, where we worked with Joshua Meng who wrote and performed our theme songs. Thanks also to our guests, and we encourage you to check out their work. This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it. — Joe Kendrick

Sierra Hull, Natalya Weinstein, Becky Buller, Claire Lynch, and Della Mae: What Does It Take To Be A Leading Lady?

Sierra Hull won her fourth award for Mandolin Player Of The Year at the IBMA conference in fall of 2022, a feat that would not have been within her grasp in the not-too-distant past. Now, women like Sierra Hull, Natalya Weinstein of Zoe & Cloyd and the group Della Mae can and do receive the recognition that women before them, like Becky Buller and Claire Lynch, worked so hard to put within their reach. We welcome all these artists to this episode where we tackle the question of what it takes to be a leading lady in bluegrass. Their answers reveal an array of challenges but also a number of positives about being a woman in a scene that has come a long way just in the past decade.

This episode has two parts: first, we hear from Sierra Hull about everything from coming up with a mentor like Alison Krauss to becoming a mentor herself, to how she is never satisfied as a musician and how that has made her push her boundaries, and what she has in store for a very busy year. Then, we hear from our other guests about the question of overcoming hurdles and finding their place in the spotlight.

Sierra Hull at the convention center in Raleigh NC during the IBMAs in October 2022

Songs heard in this episode:

“The Last Minute” by Sierra Hull, from 25 Trips

“Poison” by Sierra Hull, from 25 Trips, excerpt

“Bulgar Sigansky” by Zoe & Cloyd, from Songs Of Our Grandfathers, excerpt

“Didn’t Die” by Becky Buller, from ‘Tween Earth and Sky, excerpt

“The Day That Lester Died” by Claire Lynch, from Crowd Favorites, excerpt

“Peg Monster” by Della Mae, from Headlight

Thanks for listening to this episode, and I hope you might tell someone you know about the series. You can follow us on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, TuneIn, you name it. And once you do that, it really helps when you give it a good rating and a review. Top ratings and reviews help greatly to make Southern Songs and Stories and the artists it profiles more likely to be found by more people just like you. Southern Songs and Stories is a part of the podcast lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes of this podcast on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, and to Joshua Meng, who wrote and performed our theme songs. This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it.   - Joe Kendrick

The Humble Genius Of Earl Scruggs

For his 99th birth anniversary, WNCW honored the late great Earl Scruggs by sharing portions of interviews with artists who knew him, broadcasting stories ranging from brief encounters in young adulthood, like Sierra Hull’s memories of Earl, on to years of friendship and collaboration with guests like John McEuen and Pete Wernick (note: Sierra Hull will also be our featured guest in her upcoming episode). These conversations were rich and deep, and helped me understand Earl Scruggs as the man in ways that were at turns surprising, but always inspiring. I asked everyone here essentially the same two questions: tell us your favorite memories or stories about Earl, and talk about his impact as an artist and how that legacy continues since he has been gone. It all adds up to three and a half hours of audio (!), and it should be no surprise that there is a ton of gold to be mined in all those conversations; here is a synopsis, a sampling of everyone’s thoughts, insights and memories. This episode hones in on the stories that reveal Earl Scruggs as a humble genius, a quiet and kind man who was in so many ways the same farm boy and mill worker from the foothills of western North Carolina even after living in a mansion in the heart of Nashville. Plus, there is plenty of talk about the genius and enduring legacy of Earl Scruggs, whose namesake lives on in the form of not only his vast catalog of recordings, his songwriting and revolutionary playing style, but also in the Earl Scruggs Center in his home county, housed in the county courthouse built in 1907 in downtown Shelby NC, as well as the Earl Scruggs Music Festival, which began in 2022 and continues on Labor Day weekend in 2023 in nearby Tryon NC. 

Earl Scruggs

In this episode we welcome Kristin Scott Benson, Travis Book, Alison Brown, Sam Bush, Jeff Hanna, Vince Herman, John McEuen, Jim Mills, Earl’s nephew J.T. Scruggs, Pete Wernick, and even my dad, who gives us a glimpse of what a Scruggs family gathering was like in the 1950s.

Songs heard in this episode:

“Earl’s Breakdown” by Flatt & Scruggs

“You Are My Flower” by Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, from Will the Circle Be Unbroken, excerpt

“Hot Corn Cold Corn” by Flatt and Scruggs, from Flatt and Scruggs at Carnegie Hall, excerpt

“Some Of Shelley’s Blues” by The Earl Scruggs Revue, excerpt

“Foggy Mountain Breakdown” by Flatt & Scruggs

Thanks for stopping by! Would you share this episode with someone too? It takes just a click to follow us on your podcast platform of choice, and then it will only take a minute to give it a good rating, and on platforms with the option, a review. Great ratings and reviews will make Southern Songs and Stories and the artists it profiles more likely to be found by more people just like you.

Southern Songs and Stories is a part of the podcast lineup of Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes of this podcast on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, and to Joshua Meng, who wrote and performed our theme songs. This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it.   - Joe Kendrick

A Bluegrass Homecoming With Bela Fleck

When you think about the history of the banjo, its modern context seems ironic in that so many people who enjoy banjo music are unaware of its origin story and any other context than bluegrass and old time. The banjo has become closely associated with string bands especially from the American South of the mid 20th century onwards, while its early American, let alone its African and Caribbean origins tend to be ignored or forgotten.

While his spark was lit by players from the dominant narrative like Earl Scruggs, Bela Fleck was destined to take the banjo on a musical journey that is nothing short of epic. Bela played the Scruggs style; he pushed the envelope with that style in New Grass Revival; he invented his own language on the instrument with his band the Flecktones; he went on to put it square in the middle of collaborations with artists from Africa and India, among many other pioneering works.

Joe Kendrick (L) and Bela Fleck (R) at IBMA in Raleigh, NC 09-29-22

In late September 2022, I sat with Bela Fleck in downtown Raleigh, North Carolina at the convention center where the International Bluegrass Music Association was holding its annual conference and festival, an event which saw Bela win “Album of the Year”, “Instrumental Group of the Year”, “Instrumental Recording of the Year” and “Banjo Player of the Year”. My Bluegrass Heart won a Grammy award for best bluegrass album, too. They were his first awards at the event since the dissolution of his former band New Grass Revival more than thirty years ago. 

In the hours before those IBMA awards came his way, we spoke about his return to bluegrass, how the form is underestimated among many in other circles, what he thinks roots music needs most right now, which to give you a hint is not more instrumental virtuosos, his dream collaborations and much more.

Songs heard in this episode:

“Vertigo” by Bela Fleck from My Bluegrass Heart

“Wheels Up” by Bela Fleck from My Bluegrass Heart featuring Sierra Hull and Molly Tuttle, excerpt

“Slippery Eel” by Bela Fleck from My Bluegrass Heart featuring Billy Strings and Chris Thile, excerpt

“Hunky Dory” by Bela Fleck from My Bluegrass Heart, excerpt

Thanks for visiting! Would you share this episode with someone who might enjoy it also? It is super easy to follow us on your podcast platform of choice, and then it will only take a minute to give it a good rating, and on platforms with the option, a review. Great ratings and reviews will make Southern Songs and Stories and the artists it profiles more likely to be found by more people just like you.

Southern Songs and Stories is a part of the podcast lineup of Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes of this podcast on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, and to Joshua Meng, who wrote and performed our theme songs. This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it.   - Joe Kendrick

A Mythical and Moral Tale To End All Tales With Barrett Davis

This one is for all the late bloomers. For anyone that went all in on their passion as an adult rather than a youth (or hopes to still), you will find a kindred spirit in Barrett Davis, who in his late 20s has released his debut album and is pushing to make music his career. While it may be harder to start a music career later in life, it has been done before: fellow North Carolina artists Chatham Rabbits come to mind, as well as previous Southern Songs and Stories guests Pony Bradshaw and Jeremy Pinnell, plus icons like Leonard Cohen and Al Jarreau are also examples.

Barrett Davis (center) performing at the Albino Skunk Music Festival 10-08-22 (photo: John Gillespie)

Davis, a carpenter by day, has the additional challenge of providing for his family while he chases his dream. If his first album The Ballad Of Aesop Fin is any indication, though, he has a good shot at realizing his goals of making carpentry more along the lines of a hobby or side hustle than a daily endeavor. The eight song collection features Woody Platt of Steep Canyon Rangers fame, and is produced by longtime friend and former bandmate Aaron Aiken, now a member of Asheville indie pop group Pink Beds. We spoke on a video call in early September 2022, and touched on everything from the sense of place in his music to his faith to what he described as the “old man emotions” that he witnessed on construction sites. Of course, we dip into his music as well, including a live performance of his song “Lazarus”.

Songs heard in this episode:

“Aesop Fin” by Barrett Davis, from The Ballad Of Aesop Fin

“Highway 64” by Barrett Davis, from The Ballad Of Aesop Fin, excerpt

“Quiver” by Barrett Davis, from The Ballad Of Aesop Fin, excerpt

“Lazarus” by Barrett Davis, live at Albino Skunk Music Festival 10-08-22

Thanks for listening, and we would be even more grateful were you to share this episode with someone. It is super easy to follow us on your podcast platform of choice, and then it will only take a minute to give it a good rating, and on platforms with the option, a review. Great ratings and reviews will make Southern Songs and Stories and the artists it profiles more likely to be found by more people just like you.

Southern Songs and Stories is a part of the podcast lineup of Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes of this podcast on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, and to Joshua Meng, who wrote and performed our theme songs. This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it.   - Joe Kendrick

It’s Always Roots Music 12 O’Clock With Jerry Douglas

Jerry Douglas was effusive and ebullient all afternoon. He and his band approached their soundcheck session with a mixture of patience, focus and glee; it was the warmup for their first performance in front of a live audience in over a year. After sitting out the pandemic for all that time, the main hurdle to their exercise in knocking the rust off seemed to be finding what gear was in which bin, serving only to slightly delay them in getting things back into fifth gear. Jerry’s energy and enthusiasm continued afterwards, when he spoke about everything from his latest album project with John Hiatt to his analogy of the cyclical nature of musical tastes, which gave us the title to this episode.

The Jerry Douglas Band performs at Hazel Robinson Amphitheatre in Asheville, NC 06-03-21

Joe Kendrick and Jerry Douglas on stage at Pisgah Brewing in Black Mountain, NC 08-25-18

Songs heard in this episode:

“From Ankara to Izmir” by The Jerry Douglas Band, performed live 06-03-21 at Hazel Robinson Amphitheatre, Asheville, NC

“All The Lilacs In Ohio” by John Hiatt with The Jerry Douglas Band, from Leftover Feelings, excerpt

“Touch and Go” by Sean Jones from No Need For Words, excerpt

Thank you for stopping by. We hope you enjoyed the podcast, and might tell someone you know about it. You can follow the series on podcast platforms everywhere. Currently Southern Songs and Stories is ranked in the top 5% of all podcasts, which is great! But for this endeavor to be self-supporting, we ask that you follow the series and then give us a top rating and a review on your platform of choice. It is all free, and doing this will make all of the topics and artists covered on this series more likely to be found by more people just like you. Southern Songs and Stories is a part of the podcast lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes of this podcast on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to Sean Rubin for recording and mixing The Jerry Douglas Band’s live performance of “From Ankara to Izmir”, and to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW, where we worked with Joshua Meng, who wrote and performed our theme songs. - Joe Kendrick

Grass That Goes Against the Grain: Wood & Wire

In 2018, the four piece group Wood & Wire was nominated for a Grammy award for their album North of Despair. Since their four members had come up playing styles like jazz and punk rock, of course they would find themselves in a band on the verge of winning nationwide recognition as a bluegrass band -- from that hotbed of the genre, Austin Texas no less. Somehow, two plus two equals five with Wood & Wire, and here they are, carving out a niche that seems as unlikely as it is fortunate.

Wood & Wire

In this episode, singer and guitarist Tony Kamel and mandolin player Billy Bright talk about updating and spinning the old murder ballad “Darlin’ Corey” into their song “Pigs”, bringing in Peter Rowan for a tune, how growing up in Houston did not feel like growing up in the South at all, and how growing up in El Paso could easily be thought of as growing up somewhere not at all in Texas. That is just part of what they have to say, and of course, we feature some music from the band’s fourth studio album No Matter Where It Goes from Here.

Wood & Wire album cover for No Matter Where It Goes From Here

Thanks for dropping by Southern Songs and Stories, and I hope you might tell a friend about this endeavor. You can subscribe to this series on your podcast platform of choice, and it helps even more when you give it a good rating and a review. Great ratings, and reviews especially, will make Southern Songs and Stories and the artists it profiles more visible to more people just like you. Southern Songs and Stories is a part of the podcast lineup of both public radio WNCW and Osiris Media, with all of the Osiris shows available here. You can also hear new episodes of this podcast on Bluegrass Planet Radio here. Thanks to Sean Rubin for the audio of my call with Tony and Billy, and to Corrie Askew for producing the radio adaptations of this series on public radio WNCW. This is Southern Songs and Stories: the music of the South and the artists who make it.   - Joe Kendrick

Songs heard in this episode:

“Clamp’s Chute” by Wood & Wire from No Matter Where It Goes From Here, excerpt 

“Pigs” by Wood & Wire from No Matter Where It Goes From Here, excerpt

“Roadie’s Circles” by Wood & Wire from No Matter Where It Goes From Here, excerpt

[“My Hometown” by Wood & Wire from No Matter Where It Goes From Here]